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Sheogorath 🦊 @sheogorath

Decentralize your world.

There is of course as federated social media.

There is good old as federated postbox (as long as not everyone uses GMail).

There is as a federated video platform.

There is / Matrix.org as federated group messaging.

There is for federated 1on1 messaging.

And there is as federated cloud storage.

In theory most services are already federated. We only miss more users :)

@sheogorath @ymhuang0808 @Maltimore

Thats an interesting question, searx is a #openweb project that fits the #4opens using common, technology. For example we are trying to get a search plugin for mastodon and the #OMN linking project, anyone can use this on there instances of searx. begs the question what "federation" is/not.

@peterspark in what way is yacy federated? Do yacy servers communicate with each other?

@hund
I love good old IRC (I'm running an own network) but its not federated and this way, not for this list.

Sorry.

@sheogorath @hund

indeed, IRC is largely for the retrocomputing crowd at this point :P

@sheogorath You talked about decentralized things though. The only thing on the list that's federated is Mastodon.

@hund
I hope you double check your definition of federation.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa

All listed services support federation.

@sheogorath Which services can Peertube, XMPP and Nextcloud talk to?

@hund
Nextcloud interconnects between Nextcloud and OwnCloud instances using their fedeated-sharing feature.

XMPP is explicitly made for federation and the s2s protocol connects between XMPP instances.

Peertube connects with MediaGoblin and other Peertube instances using activityPub.

Just do a tiny little bit of research on these Protocols/implementations. ;)

@sheogorath @hund you can even follow a peertube channel on your mastodon instance. Since they're using AP you should/will be able to from any AP-aware social software.

@sheogorath @hund Also, IRC was /designed/ to be federated, but the protocol design was too trusting of instance admins (ircops) - an ircop could elevate themselves to channel op and start kicking users from a channel, even if they were on another server.

However, the fix for that was, instead of making ops only able to affect their own server's users, to implement policies of only federating along common policy lines, so federation became load balancing instead of decentralization.

@sheogorath @hund (And, also, a huge part of this was... IRC originally allowed everyone to federate into the network, but that obviously had to be killed due to the malicious attacks on the federation.)

@sheogorath Search engines can also be federated. There is a search engine called YaCy

@TankeSkud Yes and no, On one hand yes, search engines can probably be federated, on the other hand I wouldn't call Yacy federated.

Yacy calls itself a P2P search engine and other than federation, P2P starts to build up mirrors of content to keep it online. While in case of Federation you have an original source and owner of data and when this owner goes down the data is gone.

Also in usual P2P networks you address content (with a hash), while in federated networks you address id@source.

@sheogorath a good, full-featured event planning/hosting service is sorely missing. That’s the main feature that keeps me on fb.

@smakian Phew, that's no easy question. There is OpenEvent but I wouldn't consider it as usable for non-tech people.

Also it's not build for federation. Maybe someone is annoyed enough that he or she starts to work on an event platform that supports OpenID for customers and maybe also publishes its feed via ActivityPub ^^

Apart from that, with some luck maybe another person in the Fediverse already has a solution and will tell it to us?

@sheogorath I'de say we need a nice, federated code hosting and issue tracker.

There is a feature request for GitLab already: gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-c

So, one can hope.

@rysiek
Yes, that's actually a feature that I miss most. But I'm not sure if activityPub is the right protocol for that .-. But I'm also not too familiar with this Standard.

@sheogorath thing is, ActivityPub is *the standard* now, so let's embrace it.

@deejoe @rysiek Uh? Didn't know that. Are there any detailed docs about the federation feature? Couldn't find it :/

@deejoe @rysiek Yes, sadly, as I realized by reading in detail, it's no real federation, as federation has the basic requirement that you don't leave your instance to do something like that.

It's a first step, but not the real solution :/

@sheogorath
Having different services for group and one to one messaging seems like a bit of duplication.

@danipozo
Not to me. The usecases are different and you want stuff like large group communication handled differently than you private 1on1 conversations.

And why not use two different services for that?

@sheogorath
Because the second usecase is a particular case of the first one, I guess.

I like the overall experience of Telegram, which covers both usecases very well, and would like to see a federated service with such amount of useful features.

@danipozo
When you check my recent history, you'll notice I have a very own opinion on Telegram.

Anyways, yes and no. Telegram works fine with something like 5 groups and 10 private conversations. But I'm currently working with more than 50 large group on riot and 20-30 private conversations (in my case on signal).

When you see how Telegram organizes these group and private conversations you die without pinning stuff.

Here I prefer 2 applications instead.

@sheogorath
I might not really understand what's your usecase then. How does exactly Telegram fail to scale?

@danipozo
Ever had very active chat conversations? It starts with the point that group and 1on1 chats are mixed up and reordered by chat activity.

Followed by the fact that you may want to be in a group but put them on low priority because you sometimes reach out there for help but you are in general not too interested in it. Etc. Also I don't know any company putting their interal conversation on telegram. But I know people who do that on matrix.org ;)

@danipozo @sheogorath You can do 1:1 Chats/DMs *and* Group chats in Matrix. (Riot being the reference client implementation atm)

Technically every conversation is a group in Matrix because your 3 client devices and your partner's 2 devices already make a group of 5 devices, even if there's only two accounts involved.

Everything can be end-to-end encrypted in Matrix with an *audited* protocol (meg-olm) and opensource implementation.

@MacLemon

While I agree from my perspective right now (as everything is in beta) I prefer to use a messenger that runs encryption by default for IM.

Also it's still something I like to split anyways as Matrix is connected to all the projects I'm working on, while a separate app for my private chats with friends and family keep distraction away. Sure, this could also be solved by multiple accounts, by why not keep it UNIX :)

@danipozo

@sheogorath @danipozo That's a totally different question though. Matrix will enable automatic and default E2EE once it gets out of Beta, which should happen this year.

For 1:1 conversations there's a gazillion alternatives with E2EE that have acceptable UI (by now) and good crypto. (Namely Signal, though the “desktop client” as they dare to call it is a terrible abomination.)

For encrypted group chats there is no federated, group E2EE capable alternative.

@sheogorath We need a service that combines all of these into one.

@sheogorath No disroot is a collection of different services. I meant one website that has all these services combined into one.

@desikn I guess I understand what you want to have :D

You want federated Google services, right?

I don't think that will happen because the way Google services are built are way less complex than how we build stuff for federation.

In case of Google you have a company with decisions and a made up direction.

In free software you have tons of political and technical discussions. Free software development is way less efficient but that doesn't mean it's bad. But it means you won't get this soon.

@sheogorath Yeah, similar. Only then can we attract users. That's why Facebook and Google are popular. People don't need to look elsewhere because they provide everything under one roof.

I don't think this will happen though, because of the nature of FLOSS.

@DialMforMara Well, it's on a good way. Right now, as it's in beta, I wouldn't use it as my only platform, but there is no reason to not use it. Every bug you notice can (hopefully) be fixed before it becomes stable.

What do you have to lose?

@amiloradovsky As mentioned in another answer to my original toot:

searx is a meta-search engine. So neither federated nor independent .

And as you can see in the results page, they are very often just taken from Google and/or Bing.

So if you want a more decentralized search engine, there is the search engine called . But I personally wasn't really happy with the results :/

@sheogorath This is great, Matrix supports 1 on 1 chat pretty simply, well really quite well. Though XMPP also is an option, and I *think* it does group, and that Matrix can bridge to XMPP.

But, I haven't heard of PeerTube so I'm checking that out.

@benrob0329 Well, the focus of XMPP is 1on1 messaging. It doesn't mean there are no group messages on it. But same applies the other way around for matrix.

But in both cases the focus is different and this way the usual UI/UX desgin.

@sheogorath That..really isn't true from my experience.

XMPP has excellent group chats, and the UI is about what you'd expect coming from Matrix or IRC (though most older clients separate the roster from the chat window, similar to Steam). It just separates people from MUCs.

Matrix on the other hand, simply does not differentiate. While this serves to simplify things in some ways, it also complicates them in others.

@sheogorath

Decentralization also includes things like "states' rights," which can be both positive and negative. Watch out.

@sheogorath

But oh wait, I forgot, there is no real world outside the interwebzz. Sorry.

@bmt Well, one intent behind this list is the factor that service can stop to try to be compatible to "every state''s law" and instead you have instances inside a state that run under the local law.

For those who explicitly don't want an instance in their own country for what ever reason, well, influence your politics, and you can still sign up on another instance, but not everyone has to fulfil every state's laws :)

@sheogorath
And to run all this, you may use @yunohost to make your life easy!

@sheogorath pardon if this was asked multiple times already but is PeerTube ready for practical use? I can only see the demo instance with demo videos available.

@polychrome
I wouldn't call it ready for production as it is still in beta, but if you want to use something similar, but well tested, you can go for mediagoblin.

Otherwise I still recommend to use peertube to find and report bugs so they don't make it into production ^^

@sheogorath I'm convinced that fixing the "more users" problem is just a matter of curating the user experience, as Mastodon seems to be doing.

@sheogorath Recent history shows that users *will* switch to new IMs when they have a compelling new feature.

@sheogorath Features that compel normal humans to try a new app are rarely stuff like "end-to-end crypto" or "federated service".

Give them cute stickers, animated selfies, location-based speed dating. Something along these lines... and they will come in millions!

@sheogorath Signal is the only free and secure IM with a passable UX I've seen so far.

I have some hope that Signal will drive some adoption community because it made design trade-offs which—while at adds with some of us neckbeards—facilitate mass adoption. Yes, I'm talking about being phone number based and using GCM for message delivery.

@sheogorath Hopefully WhisperSystems will invest part of the $50M they received from the WhatsApp co-founder to add some of the UX pixie powder that made WhatsApp so successful.

@codewiz @sheogorath A key aspect to user adoption is to have *native* client applications for services/protocols.

Nobody would use Mastodon if there weren't native clients fir iOS and Android. Even more would use it, especially the mire active users, if there were native client applications for Windows, macOS, Linux and BSD.

Any Webinterface is a terrible UX compared to real native applications.

@codewiz @sheogorath "just a matter of curating the user experience" - far from it IMO. FB, Google etc work well and most people don't see compelling reasons to move away from them. Although recent scandals may start to scare them. Hopefully we'll get there. Let's be ready to welcome them.

@sheogorath #nextcloud is not federated or decentralized, it's just self hosted.

@tofeo Yes, I didn't mention a lot on this list.

I think the intention was more to show the span of different service types more than list all possible alternatives :)

I hope you understand that the space is limited in 500 characters and this way, not everything could be mentioned ^^

@sheogorath Just so I have better understanding, what's the difference between #federation and #decentralisation

@jringram Well, decentralization in first place means moving away from a central point/instance/entity. Like moving away from GMail or Facebook.

Federation means that independent service providers interconnect and this way communication across providers is possible. Like email providers and your ability to send emails from mailbox.org to Gmail or Mastodon so you can communicate between instances.

There is also P2P but that's a completely different story ;) (as I have only 6 chars left)

@sheogorath And that's why I joined #mastodon , deleted my Dropbox account and set up Nextcloud on a Raspberry Pi at home. But granted, it's difficult to convince the crowd....

@musicmatze
I agree that @matrix is able to do 1on1 as well, but right now from my perspective the encryption (specially the requirement to approve every device from the other side) makes it too complicated for a lot of users.

Here I would rather recommend apps like Conversations which may also use which can wonderful adapt the email workflow. And this way easily verify identities over multiple devices.

@Digitalcourage

@sheogorath @Digitalcourage @matrix @musicmatze
having default e2ee is fooling the users into trust. imho blind trust e2ee keys over transport-encryption effectively is transport-encryption, but it is not e2ee until using 2nd channel.

@mg

Well, that's why I mentioned GPG. Which uses traditional signing ways. Or if you go for something like Signal, you can mark keys of people you met face2face as trusted.

So even unverifed e2ee is more than plain transport enryption. Why? Because (in usual e2ee-featuring clients) you get notified about key changes after "accepting" one. So it's harder to MITM and established e2ee even when the keys are unverifed using a 2nd channel.

@musicmatze @matrix @Digitalcourage

@sheogorath @Digitalcourage great list. one note: xmpp also supports group chats.

@sheogorath good post! Riot does 1on1 messaging now so maybe we don't need XMPP?

@classyguy It depends a bit on what you are about to do. for me Matrix is focused on group communication (like every conversation is a group) while XMPP is focused on 1on1 conversations.

To be honest, I don't use XMPP myself, instead go for signal, but for this list it seemed to be not the right choice, so back to good old XMPP.

Also in my opinion XMPP is a bit better with e2ee by default than Matrix is right now(!) as it's not enabled by default and a bit too complicated for non-tech people.

@sheogorath

riot is best with any matrix provider other than the default, matrix.org

xmpp on android is best as conversations.im

Email is best with #AutoCrypt

Privacy is best not-raped

@capedavenger

If you talk about architecture:

github.com/Chocobozzz/PeerTube

If you talk about enduser documentation, there are some videos but I don't think there is already something written about really "how to use it" :D

peertube.cpy.re/videos/watch/f

@sheogorath There is also Diaspora as a federated alternative to tumblr/facebook.

@sheogorath
>There is of course #mastodon as federated social media.

AHAHAHA, that's the fucking hugbox of the fediverse. Every other software here says hi.
@kro well that's not the most marketable presentation, but yes, @sheogorath there's GNUsocial, Postactiv, Plemora, StatusNet and probably more that I'm forgetting right now to do the same and in certain applications more than Mastodon, Check them out and find the one that is most practical for the implementation you have in mind.

@nerthos @kro

No worries guys, I'm aware of that. But given to the case, that I wrote this on Mastodon with less than 40 followers, I neither expect this to spread so far, nor did I have enough space/characters to list all the different implementations without omitting the rest of the list.

It was a post out of a mood and neither was intended to be complete nor completely correct, so feel free to add tips or improve it by rewriting :)

@sheogorath @nerthos >Character limit
One of the worst parts of mastodong. It's 65,000 characters roughly, here. And unlike mastodong, posts scroll once they get too long, like so;
image.png
@sheogorath @kro Oh, that's fine, I just mention it because a lot of people new to the fediverse tend to have no idea that other software exists and default to mastodon simply because of that rather than liking the software more (which is perfectly fine if that's the case)
@kaniini @sheogorath I can stop, but I will not stop.

Fuck mastodon.
@kro @sheogorath

You can choose to use a different software, but it is not productive to shit on Mastodon all day. All it does is make the Pleroma community look hostile.
...and overload your 32gb RAM/8core server with just one Synapse 😁